The MacWorld Podcast #119 Features VoiceOver and Accessibility
23 April, 2008 @ 1:07 pm by LioncourtIn the 119th episode of the MacWorld Podcast, host Christopher Breen is joined by Josh de Lioncourt to discuss VoiceOver and Apple’s progress in accessibility for the blind and visually impaired. The show also discusses the recent news of Mac clones.
We’d like to thank Mr. Breen and MacWorld.com for taking the time to explore VoiceOver and Apple’s accessibility efforts.
Cara remarked:
Josh, -very nicely done! Your presentation was both flawless and fair. In my opinion, it not only reflects well on Apple’s current efforts regarding accessibility in OSX with VO but really brings this forward-thinking paradigm into the spotlight as it were.
Kudos to you / MacWorld!…
Jake commented:
Josh, this was very nicely done. I have to say how amazing it is to here a presentation like this in a mainstream media. This could really start to bring Apple the spotlight and praise they deserve in the area of accessibility, as many of those who listened to this episode of Macworld may know someone who is blind who can’t afford the traditional cost of a PC and recommend this to them. This is great, and hopefully this type of thing happens more often. Speaking of that, is this the first time accessibility has been featured in a media where it is not the primary focus? It certainly seems that way to me.
jjolley said:
The presentation did what it always does, put Josh in a good light and the other blind Mac users cabal. The same old sites and resources. This is the same community that threw me off the very list designed to help them because I insisted that people get off there arse and read documentation.
I have been a mac user for a good year or so now, having both experienced the original os 9 with outspoken. I’ve been around technology for years but all of the blindies who frequent this site don’t give a **** about anyone but the same mac cabal as I said.
As far as i’m concerned, you all need to stop worshipping someone who firstly doesn’t know as much as he reckons and secondly designs for windows! So what? If he was such a great person, why not switch entirely? Oh, I forget, all you blindies don’t/ Your all still windblows.
Lioncourt interjected:
Re: jjolley
I’m frankly at a loss to understand from wence your animosity stems. Lioncourt.com is a new resource, not an old one, and contains new content in addition to links to resources elsewhere, which has been updated as recently as this week. There are now a total of five contributors to this site, not counting those who have provided content for the Guides and Tutorials section. I have no desire to put myself in the spotlight, as anyone who knows me personally can attest. My mission continues to be to advocate for, and provide information about, Apple’s efforts in the area of accessibility.
And while i don’t feel it is particularly relevant, I will address your comments about my background in developing software for Windows. I have, personally, switched entirely to the Mac platform. I use Windows exclusively for development. Making the switch to developing exclusively for the Mac would make as much business sense as Apple discontinuing iTunes for Windows…that is to say, none at all. Our future titles, as i have said multiple times, will be cross-platform.
jjolley wrote:
Like I said, it is still effectively a Cabal. After all, main menu always features the same crew of people. With all respect, there are other mac users you know . The UK never gets any coverage on any of these american technology programs.
As to working in a cross platform environment, doesn’t that mean your software will suffer as a result as you have to constantly use standard libraries and whatnot. After all, surely the advantages of writing exclusively for a platform is that you can take advantage of all the facilities the hardware allows. Anyways I still stick by what I said regarding the blind mac users community.
Lioncourt interjected:
If you see the same crew again and again, it is because we are the ones out there advocating in constructive ways. Other users could do what we’re doing. There is no “cabal”. On the contrary, the whole point of what we’re doing is to convey to other visually impaired computer users that the Mac is a viable option. We are working toward expanding the community. And, further to that, our most recently added editor on Lioncourt.com, to the best of my knowledge, hasn’t been involved on any podcasts or Internet radio shows, and is a relative newcomer to the VoiceOver communities.
Re: Software development. Quality of software does not need to suffer because it is cross-platform. iTunes, Safari, and even console games are great examples of cross-platform software that works well on whichever platforms it is deployed upon.
Dan Eickmeier remarked:
Just wanted to say well done Josh, and like other commenters have said, it’s good to see apple’s accessibility efforts getting out into main stream media.
Jake interjected:
To Mr. Jolley:
Let me keep this short, and straight to the point. If you see yourself as being under-represented, or feel that something is wrong with the current situation, get up and do something about it. Stop whining like a child and contribute something valuable. Write reviews, advocate, do demos, or whatever fits you best. And if you see something wrong with the way things are done, say so in a constructive way and give your input. Personal attacks are pathetic, and completely unhelpful, and reflect a lot more on the one doing the attacking than the one being attacked.
Now, let’s draw this mini flamewar to a close and get back on topic.
jjolley said:
That’s rich. How exactly can we advocate for accessibility when people get shot down for voicing there views? Is that free speech then? I forgot, your all out for your selves, look at me I am great because I can use a mac. Well **** the lot of you then. If that is what constitutes advocacy I want no part of it. My own apple store here in the UK is constantly being shown how viable the mac is. There genuinely interested in access. It is getting word out to locals and whatever that does real things. Was it you lot that got listen again more accessible? Fluid? Inform? Zoom? no! It was me! But of course you won’t give a **** about that. See what I mean, a friggin cabal!
Lioncourt replied:
For the record, differing views are welcome here, and are the means by which advancements are made in any arena. It is the way in which those views are presented that matters most in public forums.
John replied:
I honestly have no idea where these attacks are coming from. I believe Josh did an awesome job, and to me, the word getting out there is more important than the individuals doing it. I don’t care what part of the world you are from, as a blind Mac user, doing your part to spread the word is important to the overall community. I think the comments about the blind Mac user community are completely ridiculous and ignorant, and would be insulting if I hadn’t been around long enough to recognize the reality. In a small, grass roots movement, which is exactly what blind Mac users are, there are always a few folks who kindly take the standard and lead the way. Josh is someone I feel is quite suited for this, and the fact that he develops for Windows and has the years of experience to speak with knowledge on both platforms makes him that much more valuable. Just because one has to still use Windows does not make them “bad Mac users”. That is a rather foolish assertion. Why did Apple create Boot Camp then?
Overall, Josh, nicely done, and we all know what Lioncourt has done for the expansion and enhancement of information and Facts about VoiceOver for the blind community. If you want to direct anger or displeasure, target those who truly deserve it … the blindness organizations whose efforts are counterproductive and hurtful to our right to have choices in the computer market place.
BlindGeek articulated:
Well said. And for the record, Mr. Jolley, let me just address something that hasn’t been covered here.
First of all, nobody was saying you didn’t have the right to a differing viewpoint. However, you should know that you came off rather cildish and whiney, and if that’s any indication of how you dealt with the companies with whom you say you had such great rapport as to influence accessibility changes in their programming, I for one (and only me, not Lioncourt.com or anybody else on it unless they individually come forward and say so) don’t believe you. You come across as someone with a chip the size of a small city weighing your shoulder down, which frankly makes me wonder how you walk around without falling over. If my assertions are incorrect, then why do we get the bile left over? Show us this eloquence you used with these other companies or Apple in particular to make their programs more acessible. Maybe we could learn a thing or two from you.
Secondly, and in many ways more importantly, I’d like to address this idea you insist on pervading that we somehow worship Josh as though there were an eighteen-foot-high statue of him that we bow before on a daily basis, giving him a thousand hail-Mackies to repent of our sins in using the Unholy Microsoft … I can assure you, speaking for myself, there’s no worship here. Trust me, I’ve known him for almost ten years. We’ve been roommates off and on, the bastard nearly set my apartment on fire not once, but a couple times … he’s by no means perfect. But he’s out there, making his points, shouting from the rooftops that there is another alternative to Windows. Where are you? Why don’t I see your name in podcast interviews and such? And please don’t waste my time with this whole “no one wants to listen to me” crap. Josh may feel he needs to be diplomatic for the sake of good relations, but I have no such compunctions. The very idea that people just turn you off because you happen to live in the UK is preposterous, ludicrous, and just plain, unequivocally asinine. Instead of complaining about how the blind community at large gave you a raw deal, or throwing immature, cheap shots at people, give us an example of how you think things should be done–’cause I’ll tell you, if what we’re seeing here is any indication whatsoever of how you deal with most people in most situations (and if it isn’t, then again, why are you foisting your waste on us?), then with all respect due you, the problem isn’t that you are in the UK, or that you wanted people to actually read documentation, or that your hair isn’t the right color, or that you aren’t giving Josh the amount of supplication he deserves … the problem, pure and simple, sir, is you.
buddybrannan commented:
Good job, Josh! (he says, kneeling reverently)
I really haven’t visited this site as much as I ought to. I’d probably
learn something. But I’ve been a Mac user since 2005 (with Tiger, with
some time off waiting to get a better Mac that wasn’t so slow!). Now,
I do nearly everything on the Mac. But guess what? I also use Windows
and GNU/Linux. Blasphemy! May curses rain down on my head! (Beh. What
a crock.)
I suggest we just get on with doing the fine work that Josh and other
like-minded folks are doing, and let’s do so with a positive outlook
to the future. There’s plenty to be optimistic about here, and it
really pisses off people who would rather tear down good work when the
rest of us just pitch in and do stuff without letting their negative
and unproductive noise deter us.
Cara interjected:
Mr. Jolley, speaking as (I believe) the newest editor to this site, does not the mere fact that your comments (as immature / jealous as they seem to be,) still decorate this page testify to the lack of (as you so interestingly put it) a Josh de Lioncourt-worshipping, Mac users cabal? If we truly were a cabal (and I do so love that word, thank you very much btw lol!) don’t you think one of us would have already deleted them?
Honestly, why all the anger? I said what I said above because I thought Josh did a terrific presentation; not just for himself, but for the entire cabal, uh, I mean community of Mac users as a whole. Seriously, if you had done that podcast, I’d be directing those sentiments to you, and I’d be behind you 100 percent.
This is not high school, and the whole worship a member of a clique thing is so passe, wouldn’t you agree?… I have a life, and I happen to be a Mac user. I was asked to be an editor here and I agreed because I support the premise of this site, and think that it’s a great resource. I think more people need to be aware of the Mac with VO as being a viable option for meaningful access to the experience of using a computer for their day to day work / enjoyment.
If you also have a great resource, by all means, share, and I’d personally be interested in that as well. This name-calling bit is just way over the top though, don’t you think?… If you want to get yourself heard, there are other better ways, wouldn’t you agree?…
thanks for reading, and I wish you / yours well…